On 30/01/2018 6:33 PM, Andréas Kühne wrote:
> 2018-01-30 5:18 GMT+01:00 Mike Dewhirst <miked@dewhirst.com.au
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au>>:
>
> On 29/01/2018 9:03 PM, Nick Sarbicki wrote:
>
> Going SPA when you don't know JS is very much a baptism of fire.
>
> Angular is personally my favourite too and essentially forces
> the SPA model. But it has a much bigger learning curve
> compared to Vue and React (the other two common names thrown
> about nowadays). The others are also easier to not force into
> a SPA model.
>
> Figure what's the minimum requirement first ;-).
>
>
> Single page is pretty close to the way the application currently
> works so that is promising. It is a lightweight training
> framework. Simple architecture of courses, instruction(s) and
> questions with answers aggregating a total score for the student.
>
> I won't publicise the URL because the server isn't heavy-duty. But
> if there is any individual interest I'm happy to give it off-list.
> Today I released the beta to the first client who (generously) is
> using it for his troops to do online training on how to use some
> Windows software.
>
> So back to the minimum requirement ...
>
> The single (question) page has previous-question and next-question
> links which morph into previous-instruction and next-instruction
> links when at the first and last question respectively. So that is
> the SPA similarity.
>
> When you click the [Save] button after answering a question there
> is no indication the answer has been saved without adding a line
> of text (via the view) after answer.save()
>
> Refreshing the page resends the [Save] and reprints the line of
> text saying the [Save] was successful. Too clunky.
>
>
> If you are using django in the "normal" way - you should just be able
> to add the message to the messages contrib package. Then the message
> should show when saving? Because when you click on the save button you
> should post your form and that method should (when successful) add the
> message?
Hadn't thought of that! Must investigate the messages package.
>
> It was that behaviour which made me start this thread.
>
> I checked out typescript and it looks great but it is javascript.
> It seems to let you code in ECMAScript 6 which is looking more
> like Python and as Nick mentioned, has a compilation step (which I
> suppose is like a minification step anyway) to get it into the
> version currently supported by all browsers.
>
>
> Typescript is more of a object oriented language than javascript is -
> at least compared to ECMAScript 5. It also has some support for typing
> - and great unittest support - which is criticle when writing
> javascript....
Agreed
>
> That prompted me to look more closely at a few of the transpilers
> in the link I posted in the thread-starter. One stood out for me
> ... http://www.transcrypt.org/
>
> It seems the compilation to javascript takes place in the CI
> process and it can be debugged in Python or Javascript. You can
> use both javascript and/or python libraries. Written by a Dutchman
> which is possibly interesting ;)
>
>
> What you have to remember is that you still need to transpile it when
> running in development mode. So it really doesn't matter where you do
> your transpilation. You need to setup the transpilation even in
> development - a webb browser can't run python natively.
True. However, Transcript produces Javascript. Interestingly you debug
in python or Javascript.
I'll have to allocate some time to investigate but in any case I think
DRF comes first.
>
> The Angular thing is interesting.
> https://medium.com/@chriscordle/why-angular-2-4-is-too-little-too-late-ea86d7fa0bae
> <https://medium.com/@chriscordle/why-angular-2-4-is-too-little-too-late-ea86d7fa0bae>
>
> https://www.infoworld.com/article/3213244/javascript/whats-new-in-angular-5-easier-progressive-web-apps.html
> <https://www.infoworld.com/article/3213244/javascript/whats-new-in-angular-5-easier-progressive-web-apps.html>
>
> >From those articles, it seems React is lighter-weight than
> Angular and for me that probably means easier to learn. It is
> still daunting though. Vue also assumes javascript know-how.
>
>
> Yes react is more lightweight. However it is like comparing the flask
> framework with django. The difference is very similar. React is more a
> library and angular is a framework.
I suspect React is super efficient. Facebook use it and they shave very
close to the bone.
>
> I think my best plan is to postpone a decision and make a start on
> DRF anyway. No matter what happens that is a prerequisite.
>
> I hope it isn't wishful thinking but Transcrypt looks more
> attractive than learning javascript plus a javascript framework.
>
>
> The main problem here is that you will still need to learn javascript
> - because you need to understand what will happen when your
> client-side code fails (and it will :-)). And my other point is still
> valid. Look at the user base. When you have problems with transcrypt,
> how many users can you rely on to get help? If you have a pure
> javascript problem - how many users can you rely on for help?
Excellent points. But it is difficult to dislodge wishful thinking.
There will be two sets of code. Python which I hope I can debug and
automatically generated Javascript which definitely will (I agree) have
bugs. I would have had to debug Javascript anyway and I reckon forced
debugging Javascript will let me skip the awful step of deciding to
learn Javascript. I mean that's a depressing decision to have to make.
Maybe by the time I get DRF working Transcrypt will have a few more
users? I really want to avoid Javascript. And I know Transcrypt would
not have been written unless the authors felt the same way. If it works
there will be a flood of users. It comes with a lot of promise(s).
>
> I do hope that you find a solution that works for you though :-)
Haven't made any decisions yet - apart from DRF and the messages
investigation.
Many thanks for helping :)
Mike
>
> Thanks to all for the excellent and very professional feedback.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mike
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Andréas
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 9:15 AM Andréas Kühne
> <andreas.kuhne@hypercode.se
> <mailto:andreas.kuhne@hypercode.se>
> <mailto:andreas.kuhne@hypercode.se
> <mailto:andreas.kuhne@hypercode.se>>> wrote:
>
> If that is the case - I would recommend looking into
> creating a
> single page app - with Django restframework on the backend
> if you
> want to continue with Django. For the frontend you will
> however be
> required to learn some sort of JS framework - however this
> doesn't
> have to be THAT bad. I personally like angular 5 - which is
> written in typescript - a javascript based language - that
> actually removes most of the pain. HOWEVER JS knowledge is
> good to
> have anyway....
>
> There are other frameworks that don't require that much JS
> knowledge and Jason suggested GWT which sounds like it
> could be
> worth a shot, as long as it doesn't add to much
> complexity. The
> main reason for using that would be a large user base, so
> you can
> get help. The python transpiled JS versions don't really
> have the
> greatest user base :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Andréas
>
> 2018-01-29 0:00 GMT+01:00 Mike Dewhirst
> <miked@dewhirst.com.au <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au>
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au>>>:
>
> That seems unanimous :(
>
> Jani asked what problem I need to solve. Without going
> into
> analytical detail, all the code is serverside and now the
> project needs to move towards AJAX for user experience
> reasons.
>
> M
>
> On 29/01/2018 5:44 AM, Nick Sarbicki wrote:
>
>
> Agree with everything already said.
>
> Only thing I want to add is that while js has
> historically
> been a horrible language, the modern standards
> have helped
> rectify this. Modern js can be almost pleasant to work
> with nowadays.
>
> I wouldn't spend time transpiling python to js.
> Just try
> to learn js and maybe transpile from a modern
> standard to
> the browser standard. It's almost as easy as python to
> pick up.
>
> Django compressor helps greatly in the last case.
>
>
> On Sun, 28 Jan 2018, 16:49 Avraham Serour,
> <tovmeod@gmail.com <mailto:tovmeod@gmail.com>
> <mailto:tovmeod@gmail.com <mailto:tovmeod@gmail.com>>
> <mailto:tovmeod@gmail.com
> <mailto:tovmeod@gmail.com> <mailto:tovmeod@gmail.com
> <mailto:tovmeod@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>
> If you don't want and don't have the time to
> learn JS
> you may as
> well consider outsourcing the frontend work, I've
> worked in places
> that did just that and everybody was happy, the
> internal team
> liked python and the outsourced company people
> liked
> UX and JS.
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jani Tiainen
> <redetin@gmail.com <mailto:redetin@gmail.com>
> <mailto:redetin@gmail.com <mailto:redetin@gmail.com>>
> <mailto:redetin@gmail.com
> <mailto:redetin@gmail.com> <mailto:redetin@gmail.com
> <mailto:redetin@gmail.com>>>>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> You don't describe to what extent you need
> to use
> JavaScript -
> IOW, what problem you need to solve with
> JavaScript?
>
> Depending you needs you might get away
> with basic
> knowledge
> and usage of some helpful JavaScript
> library/framework.
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 12:44 AM, Mike
> Dewhirst
> <miked@dewhirst.com.au
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au>
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au>>
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au>
>
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au
> <mailto:miked@dewhirst.com.au>>>> wrote:
>
> I have avoided javascript like the plague.
> However it
> seems I have to bite the bullet.
> Interestingly, there are
> now a number of Python -> Javascript
> transpilers.
>
> http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/pybrowser/python-browser.html
> <http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/%7Estrombrg/pybrowser/python-browser.html>
>
> <http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/%7Estrombrg/pybrowser/python-browser.html
> <http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/%7Estrombrg/pybrowser/python-browser.html>>
>
>
> <http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/%7Estrombrg/pybrowser/python-browser.html
> <http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/%7Estrombrg/pybrowser/python-browser.html>>
>
> Where would be a good place to start a
> discussion on the
> topic?
>
> I am self-employed with multiple
> demands on
> my time so I
> cannot afford to allocate sufficient
> time to
> learn it let
> alone undertake formal Javascript
> training. My
> hope is to
> pick it up by osmosis and wonder if a
> transpiler would help.
>
> Thanks for any pointers
>
> Mike
>
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> -- Jani Tiainen
>
> - Well planned is half done, and a half
> done has been
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